ALPS In Brief - Episode 83: Women Lawyers on Guard: Dismantling Sexual Harassment in the Legal Profession

Despite best intentions, sexual harassment is still a very prevalent issue that impacts the legal profession on a wide, wide basis to this day. In this episode, Rio sits down with the founders of Women Lawyers on Guard to discuss their work to confront sexual harassment, and other issues impacting women in law and what you (yes! You!) can do about it.

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Rio Peterson: 

Hello, everybody, and welcome to In Brief episode 83, Women Lawyers on Guard. My name is Rio Peterson. I am the Bar Partnership Strategist at ALPS, and today, I'm going to be chatting with two fantastically inspiring women, Cory Amron and Corrine Parver. Cory, Corrine, thank you so much for joining us. It's great to have you. 

Corrine Parver: 

Thanks so much. 

Cory Amron: 

Thank you, Rio. 

Rio Peterson: 

Thank you. 

Cory Amron: 

I'm really pleased to be here. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wonderful. So, before we dive in, I know we've got a really interesting conversation ahead of us today, which I've been very looking forward to for the past few weeks, since we had our first chat. But before we started, I wanted to find out if you could tell us a little bit about you, who you are, where you live, where you came from. Corey, why don't we start with you? 

Cory Amron: 

Okay, great. Alphabetical order. I live in Arlington, Virginia, right outside of Washington, D.C. I've been here for yeah, 30 some-odd years. I'm now retired, but I worked primarily for a number of law firms that, some of which are no longer around, but most recently retired from the firm of Vorys, Sater, Seymour and Pease, which started as a Midwest-based firm, here in D.C. 

I have been working over my 40-year legal career not only day-to-day clients, et cetera, but also on women's and diversity issues. So, for instance, I was the chair of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession, the second chair. In 1991, I took over right over right as Anita Hill was testifying in the Senate at Clarence Thomas' confirmation hearing. So, that was kind of a trial by fire. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. 

Cory Amron: 

So, I've also had a lot of experience working on sexual harassment and things like that, and then, fast-forward, co-founded Women Lawyers on Guard in 2017. 

Rio Peterson: 

Great. All right, fantastic. Corrine, how about you? 

Corrine Parver: 

I'm also a retired lawyer. First career was as a physical therapist for 15 years before going to law school. So, I went to law school primarily because I wanted to work in the health law area. My practice, when I was a partner in a law firm, was geared towards policy, regulations, as opposed to litigation. 

After I retired from practicing law, I was a law professor for close to 10 years, where I created the Health Law and Policy program at American University Washington College of Law and enjoyed teaching the young students and remained involved with the law school over the past few years, even though I am retired from actually teaching, and joined forces with Cory and our gang of warriors in 2017 to now be the president of Women Lawyers on Guard Action Network. 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. So, you both retired to then go on to do more incredible things in your post-retired life. Fantastic. Now, you mentioned you both founded and you run Women Lawyers on Guard. We know that's a nonprofit organization that's been doing some really especially important work around understanding and addressing sexual harassment in the legal profession, and that's what obviously what we're here to talk about today. So, before we really dig into the deeper part of this conversation, I'd love for the audience to learn a bit more about what Women Lawyers on Guard does. What is your mission? Why don't you tell us a little bit about how everything got started? 

Cory Amron: 

Okay, so in the end of 2016, I was a member of a national network of women lawyers, and we decided that we really needed to do something, both to protect women's rights that we had worked so hard over 40 plus years, and also expand women's rights into the next couple of years. So, we organized Women Lawyers on Guard that first year, in 2017, to bring together our volunteers, because as I said, we have a network around the country, with the legal needs of other nonprofits. 

Corrine and I went around and met with a lot of nonprofits and asked them what their legal needs were, because we weren't quite sure what exactly we wanted to do. We wanted to do something. And frankly, our volunteers didn't know exactly what they wanted to do, either. So, this was sort of marriages made in heaven, and we would match our volunteers with those legal needs. 

After about a year or so of doing that, we decided we really needed to focus our areas, and that's when we did some very heavy-duty strategic planning and came up with three areas that we were going to focus on. So, sexual harassment obviously was key, because right at that time, #metoo exploded, but we decided also that we were not going to just do one area, but we also picked women's reproductive rights, which actually at that time was not exploding but is of course now, and gender and workplace equity. Those are the three. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. I'm curious to know, how was it that sexual harassment and this area was something you both identified as an area that you wanted to be involved in? Is this something that's impacted you directly in your life? I mean, you both had pretty incredible, long careers, so I suspect that at some point, you may have encountered this. 

Corrine Parver: 

Well, as Cory said, the #metoo explosion made it even more impressed upon us that we needed to speak up for this particular area, and there were other groups that were focusing on, for example, Hollywood and the restaurant industry, and the marketing and public relations areas. We thought we needed to focus on the legal profession, and that's because we had heard stories for years, the years that we practiced, that this was a concern with people. 

We wanted to be able to represent their interests and try to do something about it, and that's how we got really involved in focusing on the legal profession, because no other group was doing that on a national basis. There were some people statewide doing certain surveys and the like, but not on a national basis. And because we were, and are, a national organization, that's what we decided to focus on. 

Cory Amron: 

And just if I could add too, that when we started to talk to lots of people in the profession when #metoo exploded, and came to determine really that there were those who didn't see it happening in the legal profession, either because well, because it wasn't happening to them, and so they just thought, "Well, we have all of these policies, and we have these trainings, and that's ... we're good to go." 

Then, we talked to other people, and not just young people, who said, "Oh my God, let me tell you what happened yesterday to me," or to my colleague, or to somebody I was in the room with, et cetera. It was like, "Ugh." We'll get into our survey, but that's kind of what led us to do that. 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. Right. Absolutely. So, really realizing that despite best intentions, this is still a very prevalent issue that impacts the legal profession on a wide, wide basis. So, let's talk quickly a little bit about DWL's mission. I know you mentioned that you focus on three areas, and what is the overarching mission of your organization? 

Cory Amron: 

Well, we have a very broad mission because again, as I mentioned, we didn't quite know what we were going to do at the beginning. So, our mission is that we are a national network harnessing the power of the law to ... well, to go after and make sure that people have equality, they have justice, and there's equal opportunity for all. So, it's a very broad mission. We have a 501(c)(3), which is the one behind me, and we have a 501(c)(4) which is what's behind Corrine, so that we can do different things in these spaces with the different organizations. 

For instance, obviously we do a lot of programming around these topics, and of course with the pandemic, we've been able to do that around the country. We not only sign onto amicus briefs, but we've also written amicus briefs, particularly one in the Dobbs case, on behalf of women lawyer organizations, which of course was ignored. We do studies, obviously we'll talk about them, and initiatives around these various topics. 

And of course, we have this network that we activate when needs be, and we also advocate. As I said, we have different arms that we can do different types of things, but we've done lobbying and with letters, advocating to policymakers. We sign petitions, and we get out there and march. 

Corrine Parver: 

I've had some really interesting experiences doing that. One of the other things that we do also is work in coalition with other groups there from out of the University of Texas, The Council on Women and the Law and the National Conference of Women Bar Associations, and the National Association of Women Lawyers. So, we have done programs with all of those groups and attended various coalition meetings to learn about what these groups are doing. The American Bar association also, as Cory had mentioned earlier, has a commission on women in the profession, and we are looking to collaborate with them, as well. 

Rio Peterson: 

All right. Fantastic. I know we're kind of deviating just a little bit, but we will definitely be talking about the survey, but I'm curious to know, so obviously, you're doing a lot. You're doing a lot of work, and so is the organization run primarily by volunteers? I'm guessing you have a pretty incredible team. 

Corrine Parver: 

Yes, we are. We are 100% volunteer-driven, and it's pretty much been the same board of directors that have been together since its inception. We've had some people go into certain government roles that prohibited them from continuing to be on our board, but they all, they continue to support us. We have a Facebook presence. We have a LinkedIn presence, and Instagram, trying to make ourselves known via social media. So, through that, we get our messages out to the various communities. 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. Oh, fantastic. Fantastic. It's really wonderful that you're devoting your time to this undertaking. It's fantastic. 

Cory Amron: 

And we're always looking for more to grow our network. 

Rio Peterson: 

Fantastic. I think at the end of the chat, we'll have a chance to ... We'll plug and let everyone know where to get ahold of you and how they can participate. 

Cory Amron: 

That's great. That's super. 

Rio Peterson: 

All right, so now, we've kind of alluded to a survey a few different times, so I would love to dive into that, because it's really, really fascinating. So, in 2020, I know you published a report titled Still Broken, and that shared the results of the national survey that was conducted by Women Lawyers on Guard, and the intention of the survey was to better understand not so much the prevalence of sexual harassment but rather the experience of those affected by it, in addition to uncovering the impact that this has on the legal profession. So, I would really love to know if you could share with us some of the methodology behind the survey itself, and expand on how the survey is different from typical surveys about sexual harassment. 

Corrine Parver: 

What we were very fortunate in being able to collaborate with a well-known researcher who is a woman by the name of Dr. Arin Reeves, who is also a lawyer in addition to having her PhD in certain aspects of statistical analyses. We put together a group that went through the actual drafting of the survey questions, and it took us a good couple of months to be able to go back and forth to hone in on all the areas that we wanted to investigate. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. 

Corrine Parver: 

Cory? 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah, so what else? My job actually was sending this out and trying to get people to respond it. So, it was not a survey where it was a closed box of respondents. It was a survey where we were just trying to get as many people as we could to respond to it, both women and men. Lo and behold, we did get a representative sample, even though we hadn't put that sample together, but we analyzed it afterwards and compared it to the demographics that the ABA keeps about lawyers, and was very representative of the box of the profession and where people were geographically, and ages and things like that. So, it was, we felt, a pretty good picture of what was going on. 

We were also, because we asked people to tell us the sort of 10-year tranche when something that they were talking about in the survey occurred, we were able to measure change over time, and I think that's one of the things about the survey that's been extremely valuable, to be able to say, "This was like this, and now it's like this." 

Corrine Parver: 

We also gave the respondents the opportunity to comment throughout the survey questions. So, when it came time to look at an issue of great import, we allowed comments. 

When we collated all the information, we gathered literally hundreds of different comments from our respondents, and included some of the quotes from their comments in an appendix in the Still Broken report. So, I would encourage everyone who listens to this podcast to actually go online to our website and read the report, and also the appendices, so that they can see the lasting effect of some of the experiences that they went through. 

Rio Peterson: 

Absolutely, and that's something that really stood out to me when I was reading the report. I think it's very often that we overlook the context surrounding these types of experiences, and I found that that really just added so much depth to understanding the issue and just understanding the experiences of those who have been impacted by sexual harassment in their workplace and just in all different ways. It was really unique, I think, the way that you've approached this. Yeah. Can you share with us some of the results of the study? 

Cory Amron: 

Yes, absolutely. Well, first, I guess I wanted to say some of the positive things that we saw. There were some. For instance, we asked about the culture of harassment within the person's employment setting, and as I mentioned, these are settings all across the board, everything from the judiciary to academia, to law firms and associations, the government, et cetera. 

What we found was that, at the very least ... We gave them choices. They could say it was often part of the culture. In other words, it was just ubiquitous. Or they could say it was part of the culture, so it was within certain departments, or groups, or whatever. Or they could say it was rare, rarely manifested itself. 

So, 30 years ago, we found that the respondents said 51% of these incidents were often, often part of the culture, 38% just various departments, and only 10% was it rare. Now, we've found, and these will be easier to see when the people read the report, 25% was often. So, it went from 51% to 25% was often. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wow. 

Cory Amron: 

So, that actually shows that there is change, and that the change is for the better. However, they also said that 48% part of the culture. So, if you add often and part together, you find what you see is that 30 years ago, 89% of these cultures had either often or in some places in the employment setting, whereas now, it's 73%, right? 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. 

Cory Amron: 

So, it's better, but it's obviously not right. So, that's one of the more positive aspects. Another positive aspect we saw was that, we asked about, in one place, who was doing the harassing. We found that a lot less now from professors in law school and a lot less now from judges in court. However, partners- 

Corrine Parver: 

And there's always a however. 

Rio Peterson: 

There's always a however, yeah. 

Cory Amron: 

However, partners and supervisors still kind of similar statistics from 30 years ago, and now, there's maybe somewhat more from clients. 

Corrine Parver: 

Another positive finding was that, in comparison over the 30-year span that we asked about, is that there were fewer sexual assaults and rapes nowadays than occurred in the past, although I think what we saw an increase in was a lot of verbal comments, name-calling such as the like. So, there was a plus on one side, but then again, the bubble expanded in another area where there is more name-calling and appearance criticisms, et cetera. 

Cory Amron: 

So, some of the negative results that we found were, as we mentioned, it's still insidious, and we called it insidious and alarming, the incidents. We'll talk about some of these things later, but the barriers to reporting were absolutely identical today as they were 30 years ago, things like, they didn't think they would be believed, or they thought they'd be retaliated against, nothing was going to happen, et cetera. 

The price to the people who were harassed, and by the way, most of these people are women, not all of them, but most of them, was just devastating, and long-lasting. I mean, there was one quote where, "Even though this happened once while I was a law student over 30 years ago, it still haunts me." 

So, the consequences to the people who are harassed, long-lasting anxiety in the workplace, fear of retaliation, loss of productivity, loss of confidence, and in the entire workplace, you find loss of productivity, anxiety, et cetera, things like that. So, the consequences to the workplace, even if it's not just the people who are harassed, is consequential, and in fact so consequential that we made a determination, not statistically, but that the consequences to the people who were harassed was greater than the people who were doing the harassing. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Right, and unfortunately, that sounds ... Yeah. That sounds not surprising. 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah, unfortunately. 

Corrine Parver: 

Another major finding that was a little bit surprising to us was that people at every level of the profession have experienced harassment of one form or another. Professors, judges have responded to us that in their capacity at really the highest levels of the profession still have experienced that kind of harassment. 

Cory Amron: 

Partners, general counsel. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. I think that was something that really disappointed and surprised me deeply. You would think that, once you reach a certain level in your career, you maybe garner enough respect that that type of behavior is curbed in others, but that doesn't seem to be the case, and I definitely found that to be very surprising and discouraging, in a lot of ways. I mean, you work really, really hard to get to where you are, and you still have to [inaudible 00:25:49] that same sort of nonsense, it's very disappointing. Yeah. 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah. I think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that, at least the way that we look at this, that sexual harassment is not a sexual thing. It's a control thing. And so people find ways to control other people, whether those people are partners or associates, or supervisors, or general counsel, whatever. This is a tool that some people use to control others. So yes, it's somewhat surprising, but maybe not so if you look at it through that lens. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Absolutely. That's an excellent, excellent way to think about it. Was there any other findings that you both found surprising? 

Corrine Parver: 

I think the numbers that we were able to calculate on the issue of reporting sexual harassment, that was a bit surprising, that the vast majority of people don't report. Either they don't have the right circumstances in their place of employment for them to report an incident. For example, if there is someone working in a small law firm, and there is on HR department, or even if there is, it could be the spouse of one of the senior partners, or the named partner of the small firm. How do you go about doing the reporting in that circumstance? So, the numbers were really quite staggering, as far as many people not reporting incidents. 

Cory Amron: 

It was something like 86% currently are not reported. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wow. 

Cory Amron: 

Mm-hmm. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wow. That's a very large number. So, I know that the goal of this study is not only to understand these experiences, but also to take these findings and use them to impact some kind of positive change in the legal profession. So, I'm curious to know, thinking about all these points that we've just touched on, what were some of the recommendations that came about as a result of the survey? 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah, go ahead. 

Corrine Parver: 

No, go ahead. 

Cory Amron: 

No, you. No, you. 

Corrine Parver: 

There's so much that we want to say, we want to make sure we get it all in. 

Cory Amron: 

Right, right, right. Well, I just want to mention three, three recommendations. There were a lot of recommendations, and Corrine, please pick up after I finish. The three that I want to mention are the reporting, because of just the terrible statistics, something we call transparency, and also individual accountability. 

So, the reporting, you can have the greatest policies, and training, and all that in the world, but if people don't feel comfortable reporting, and of course all the barriers that we just mentioned, then you're not going to hear about it. You're not going to be able to fix it. So, you need not only better reporting mechanisms, you need multiple reporting mechanisms, and you need support for reporting. That somewhat goes to the culture, so that has to come from the top down. I've heard male general counsels say that if you put better reporting mechanisms into place and your reporting goes up, you're actually doing a good job, because now, you're finding out about things that were happening that you did not know about before because there were too many barriers. So, reporting. 

The second thing is transparency, and what that means is what the workplace knows. Oftentimes, in the statistics that we found from the survey, we found that even in the 14% of incidences that were reported, 50% of those, there was absolutely no consequence, and another 20%, the person who'd been harassed was never told what the consequences were. 

So, knowing what happens and what steps the employer took is key, I think, in first of all creating a culture of A, reporting, and B, a lot less sexual harassment, but it also, everybody knows that it happened. I mean, if the employer thinks that this is under wraps and, "I'm doing my privacy thing by not telling anybody what we did," which employers do say, "Oh, privacy, and we can't tell anybody," everybody knows what has happened, and everybody needs to know that something was done about it. And it doesn't always have to be the person was fired, okay? 

Which gets to individual accountability. In the most egregious cases, the person actually is let go, and if it's a law firm, sometimes what happens is they just go across the street with their clients, leaving the firm to clean up the mess, because now, there is not only somebody who's been harassed, but now, you have ... and particularly because a lot of these people are rainmakers, so you're leaving behind a lot of people who now have no work to do. And in the worst possible case, people are suing employer, and the employer now has to come up with funds to settle these lawsuits. Sometimes, the individual goes off Scott free. 

So, there needs to be individual accountability. We've been looking and talking to a lot of people about the ethics requirements and disciplinary requirements, and that's okay, as far as it goes, but there has to be a lot more thought given to how to make sure that the individual is accountable for what they've done. 

Corrine Parver: 

So, the consequences really aren't just for the individual who was harassed, but to the location of the employment, the place of employment, whether it's even government, or a small firm, or a large firm. The business imperative exists for companies to act properly in informing the employees or partners, but the people in the workplace what has occurred, because the gossip will permeate the institution. People will know, as Cory mentioned, and so the consequences financially and otherwise are of concern.