ALPS In Brief Podcast - Episode 88: The Value and Community of Bar Partnerships ft. Bob Paolini of VT

In this mini episode of ALPS In Brief, our Bar & Affinity Partner Strategist Rio Peterson sits down with Bob Paolini, Executive Director at the Vermont Bar Association to discuss the importance of bar partnerships, how they create value for members, and the pivotal role bars play in the legal community.

Transcript: 

Rio Laine: 

All right. Hello, everybody. This is Rio Laine here, coming to you from ALPS for this installment of kind of a mini In Brief episode that we are doing. And so I am here today with Bob Paolini from the Vermont Bar Association. Hello, Bob. Thanks for joining us. 

Bob Paolini: 

Good morning, Rio. Thanks for having me. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, it's great to have you here. So you are the executive director of the Vermont Bar Association? 

Bob Paolini: 

I am, 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Want to tell me a little bit about your background and how you ended up at the bar? 

Bob Paolini: 

Sure. Well, I'm a lawyer. I practiced in Vermont. I was admitted to the bar in 1973. 

Rio Laine: 

Wow. Yeah. 

Bob Paolini: 

I became executive director of the bar in February of 1996. 

Rio Laine: 

Wow. Yeah. 

Bob Paolini: 

So I've been in practice for 22 years. During that time, I served in the Vermont House of Representatives for a couple of terms, and then left that position, just went back to practice. And then I saw that this position of ED of the Vermont Bar opened up, and one of the pieces of the qualifications that they were looking for was policymaking work, and I really enjoyed the legislative process when I was a member of the House. It's a part-time legislature. It's really hard to integrate that service with the practice of law at the same time. So I ended up not running for reelection after a couple of terms. 

When this position opened up and there was the opportunity to go back into the legislature representing the profession, I applied and I was hired, and I served in that job for 20 years. I left in the spring ... I think it was June of 2016. My successor, who I think you know, Teri Corsones, became executive director. At the beginning she didn't have any legislative experience and I worked part-time with the bar, doing some of that work during our session and helping her get acclimated to that kind of work. And then I stopped doing that. 

And then six years later, she left to become Vermont State Court Administrator, so I was asked to come back on an interim basis two years ago this month actually. And after about five months in that position, the board asked me to stay on, which I was happy to do. So, 20 years, six years away, now two years back. That's how I got here. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Well, that's fantastic. So 22 years kind of in total. Yeah. You obviously really enjoy the bar and working with the bar. What's something that you really like about your work and the Bar Association in general? 

Bob Paolini: 

We are a small bar, as you know. Maybe we have about 2,300 members of our association. Even though I've had a six-year break, I still know most of those people. Sure, there are a lot of new young lawyers, a lot of lawyers who have moved into Vermont that I don't know, but it's a small group. It's a close-knit group. The staff of six people, half of whom I've hired, half I did not hire, are great. I love working with them. And I really like our board of managers, who really has the welfare of our members at heart. They're really looking to help members improve their practices, improve their lives, and it's just great to work for them and try to represent them. 

One of the questions that I was asked in my first interview going back to 1996 was, "Taking this administrative job is going to be so different than practicing law. How do you feel about that?" And I said, "It's not all that different. I mean, yeah, I've got clients now, but now I will have just one client, and that's our profession." And that's worked out for me, and I think for them too. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, that's a really interesting way to think about it, too. I was wondering about the board, and would you say that it's really important to have a board that is invested in the welfare of your members? Would you say that that is a requirement to running things well? 

Bob Paolini: 

That's a requirement, yes. Yeah, it is. We need the direction. In our case, we have 17 voices, all of whom are in different types of practice. One of whom is a judge, by the way, because we always have a judge on the board, but they all have different perspectives on what the legal profession is about today. 

We meet 11 times a year, and I try to get up to date on, "What are you folks seeing? What should we be addressing? What challenges are new?" So as long as we're all dedicated to helping our members and helping protect the profession, as well as helping to protect the public, I think we're doing the right thing. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. What kinds of things are you hearing from the board or even members about challenges that are coming up that they're having to navigate? 

Bob Paolini: 

Well, clearly in this current climate, the rule of law is a challenge that we all have to address I think. Respect for the law, respect for the court system is something that I think every state bar needs to address. 

In Vermont's case, as I said, we're a small bar, but we are a graying bar. Vermont's surrounded by cities like Boston and New York, not literally surrounded, but we're close to those cities, Hartford, Connecticut, Boston, New York City, places where there are greater opportunities for newly minted lawyers. Asking them to come to Vermont, especially if they have a bunch of education debt, is difficult. So the number of new lawyers we have is diminishing. As the bar ages, we lose to retirement every year a handful or more than a handful of lawyers. 

So the shrinking bar is a real challenge I think for us. Actually this morning I engaged in a conversation with our board about the small number of lawyers who were applying for an open judgeship in Vermont, and everybody's concerned about that. There's an email chain going back and forth for the last two hours about what are we going to do about this? How do we get qualified people to be judges? So here's another topic for our board meeting next Friday. 

Rio Laine: 

Right, absolutely. And it seems that the graying bar situation, I mean, it's something that a lot of the bars are dealing with now. There certainly seems to be a larger number of lawyers transitioning out of practice, retiring, than there is coming in to the profession, absolutely. 

Bob Paolini: 

Yeah. I don't think Vermont's unique in that respect at all. There's technology challenges, where things went to online filing and different things. That drove some of the older members into retirement. I remember when that started and I would get phone calls or emails from our members saying, "I can't learn this whole new system now. I'm done. December 31st I'm retiring." 

So yeah, there's that, there's the pandemic, and how many people that drove out of the profession. 

Rio Laine: 

Oh, 100%. Because I mean, never mind even the technology adoption required for the pandemic, but also just navigating the entire situation. It's a lot. And if you've been practicing for a long time, it's just easier probably to call it in. 

Bob Paolini: 

I know. As opposed to relearn everything and start over. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Would you say that that's similar to the difficulty getting lawyers to practice in rural areas as well, along the same lines, it's just difficult finding people to fill those gaps? 

Bob Paolini: 

We are definitely seeing that in some of our more remote places in our state. Our state's not big, but there are counties that are not big, but they only have one or two lawyers. And we know and we try to say to new lawyers, "Look, if you want to make the sacrifice and go there, you're going to be it. You're going to be that town's lawyer." It's sort of like thinking back 50 years or more, the local town lawyer, there are towns that that local town lawyer has passed away or has retired, and there's nobody there to take over. 

So yeah, we're trying to match those new lawyers with the senior lawyers, I have them spend some time together, and then one retires and one takes over that. But it's a challenge, again, because of college and law school debt, and the fact that salaries are not that high in those rural communities. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, yeah. Fair enough. And for the new members that you do have coming in, are you finding that they're looking for more from the bar than maybe the members that are aging out, they're looking for different types of engagement? Are you finding you're having to adapt or navigate that? 

Bob Paolini: 

They are definitely looking for something different. And I have to give credit to our Young Lawyers Division because they're great about reaching out, not only to newly minted lawyers, but to law students. And we have one law school in the state, so working with that law school and trying to integrate those folks into the bar. 

Yes, their needs now are very different than what I experienced when I started. There was that whole process back then. There's one judge, now retired, who used to say that when he started his first year was carrying the briefcase for his partner. Going to court, just sitting there, but doing that for a year or whatever. That doesn't happen anymore. People don't have the resources to do that like they used to. So there's part of that education, that apprenticeship thing if you want, that's now missing. 

Rio Laine: 

Got it. Got it. That kind of mentorship piece. Yeah. And I've heard that that is a challenge for young lawyers, and I mean, you're getting into this new profession, it really helps to have some guidance and having to go without makes things much more difficult than they need to be. 

Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely lots of things that are needing to be rethought and navigated, but that's always the way it is. There's always going to be something that is a challenge, and then we have to figure it out together, so yeah. 

Bob Paolini: 

Which makes this position so much fun to be in. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes, yes. 

Bob Paolini: 

You got to meet those challenges, there are new things every day. Really, there are new things every day. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Do you like solving problems? 

Bob Paolini: 

I do like solving problems. Yeah. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah, that's fantastic. I think that's a really good way to think about it too, is rising to those challenges every day. And it makes you really a good person to be leading the bar then, because members will need to know that they have somebody who has their interests at heart and wants to help them navigate those things. 

Bob Paolini: 

Right. right. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. I also love a job that's different every day too. Yeah, it's fantastic. S 

I want to shift a little bit and talk a little bit about partnerships. Now, I know that the Vermont Bar has partnerships with different vendors, different groups and organizations, kind of like ALPS, for example. How do those partnerships impact the bar or your memberships? Do you feel like they support the Bar Association? 

Bob Paolini: 

Well, let's talk about ALPS first. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, okay. Yeah. 

Bob Paolini: 

ALPS has been a great partner, and I think our most important partner since I started working at the bar 28 ... 6 years, whatever it is, 1996. Since 28 years ago. 

This company has always reached out to the Vermont Bar Association and offered help, offered education, offered support. And frankly, even now, if I'm faced with an issue or a question, I call somebody at ALPS and say, "Have you seen this anywhere else? How did that state deal with it? Are there resources there that I can steal from there to help us deal with it?" Yeah, it's been excellent. 

Rio Laine: 

That's wonderful. 

Bob Paolini: 

It's been an excellent rapport with this company. 

Rio Laine: 

Wonderful. Oh, that's really fantastic. And obviously we want that to continue because it's important to us that we're able to support you. 

Bob Paolini: 

We have working relationships with other associations. I mean, I work closely in Vermont with the Vermont Bankers Association, with the Vermont Realtors Association, with the Teachers Union, in terms of public education and some of the legislative stuff that we need to do that we need support from these other groups that are affected. So we have lots of different partnerships, but the relationship with ALPS is different because they support educating the profession, protecting the profession, and making sure that we have what we need to have in order to not make mistakes. 

Rio Laine: 

Right, right. Yes. Oh, wonderful. I love to hear that. I guess in a general sense, what types of things do you look for in other partners, other strategic or vendor partners? Is it a willingness to offer that support, to collaborate? 

Bob Paolini: 

Yeah, it's one thing to endorse a business or a service and tell our members, "Yeah, we've endorsed them. Go contact them." The difference between just doing that and working with a partner such as ALPS, is that we do more than that, and ALPS does more than that. ALPS comes to Vermont and runs classes for us. They provide us information that we probably wouldn't otherwise have. They've helped us with our new lawyers. 

We run an incubator program where we bring in lawyers who really want to go out on their own, sometimes right out of law school. And ALPS has a program that helps them get their first-year insurance. And we actually have this incubator program where we meet with these folks in terms of staff conversations once a week for an hour, an hour and a half. And ALPS has appeared remotely at those meetings and answered questions about insurance, and letters of engagement, and just lots of little helpful hints. 

Yeah, I think we can't do that on our own. We don't have that expertise. We're a small group of seven employees at our office. But yeah, ALPS really has filled in with the needs that we really probably couldn't meet us in any other way. 

Rio Laine: 

Oh, that's fantastic. That makes me really happy to hear that. And no pressure because we're at the ALPS office or anything, but oh, that's fantastic. Oh, well, yeah. I'm really, really happy to hear that. 

I guess we'll have just a couple more minutes and we'll wrap things up, but what do you see on the horizon for the bar? What are you looking forward to? What's coming down the pipeline? What do you anticipate? Anything really. 

Bob Paolini: 

Oh, I think we need to look ... I'm not going to be doing this forever. 

Rio Laine: 

What? 

Bob Paolini: 

I'm not. 

Rio Laine: 

I don't know. 

Bob Paolini: 

So I think we need to ... Let me start over. We have a staff of seven and four of us have been there for 15 years or more. So I think internally we need to prepare for some changes. Not only my position, but my associate executive director's position, a legal services coordinator, and another staff member who does our CLEs, who you know, Laura 

Rio Laine: 

Laura? Laura, yeah. 

Bob Paolini: 

Laura, yes. There's a lot of us there that are in sort of almost retirement mode. Of course, I came back from retirement, as I like to say, the board unretired me two years ago. But yeah, I think we need to, and we already have started to prepare succession plans and transition plans. 

Yeah, so that's going to be just an internal challenge to our staffing, and it doesn't really affect the profession. It's going to involve the board more in terms of a little bit of management as opposed to just setting policy. They're going to be faced with the challenges of making certain decisions, maybe restructuring, maybe not, but certainly having to hire my successor and then he or she needs to overlap with these other folks who are looking towards retirement. Yeah, so I think we've got some challenges internally. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. A little bit of organizational change. Yeah. Yeah. And that's definitely the way it goes, right? 

Bob Paolini: 

Exactly. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. If you're not changing, you're not evolving. 

Bob Paolini: 

[inaudible 00:18:57]. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Bob. Thanks for taking the time to sit down and chat with me. Really appreciate getting to [inaudible 00:19:05]. 

Bob Paolini: 

Thanks for having me. It's great to be here again. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. Well, we're so excited to have you, and we are going to be enjoying our Bar Leaders Retreat the next few days. So yeah, looking forward to get to chat with you more. 

Bob Paolini: 

I'm sure you will. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, yeah. Great. 

Bob Paolini: 

Yeah, me too. Thank you. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah, thank you so much. All right, everybody that wraps it up for today. You will hear from me later more.