Path to Well-Being in Law – Episode 27: Nathalie Cadieux

In the latest episode of the podcast, Chris and Bree sit down with Professor Nathalie Cadieux, Ph.D. with the University of Montreal, a specialist on the mental health of professionals in a regulated profession, to learn more about her national research project on the mental health of Canadian lawyers.

Transcript: 

Chris Newbold:

Hello, wellbeing friends and welcome to the Path to Wellbeing and Law Podcast, an initiative of the Institute for Wellbeing In Law. My name is Chris Newbold, I'm executive vice president of ALPS Malpractice Insurance. And we're excited to kick off our 2023 menu of speakers.

And as most of you know, our goal here on the podcast has always been to introduce you to thought leaders doing meaningful work in the wellbeing space and within the legal profession. And in the process build and nurture a network of wellbeing advocates intent on creating a culture shift within the profession. And I have, am always excited to introduce my co-host, Bree Buchanan. Bree, how are you doing?

Bree Buchanan:

I'm doing great, Chris. And I will just say even better that now I am immediate past president of I-Well presently.

Chris Newbold:

Kind of exciting news for us on the institute front that after two really incredible launch years for the Institute for Wellbeing and Law, Bree Buchanan was our president and in many respects also our executive director. And she was the one who steered us to just an incredible launch of the organization.

And I know on behalf of our board of directors, Bree, a heartfelt thank you for that commitment. You're not going anywhere and I know that you're going to be actively engaged as we continue to move ourselves forward. But again, it's been a real honor watching Bree lead this movement in the United States. And I know again, her contributions, there are many on the horizon sure to come.

Bree Buchanan:

Thank you, Chris. That's so kind.

Chris Newbold:

Yeah.

Bree Buchanan:

It was a pleasure.

Chris Newbold:

And so the other part of that is then who did the baton go to? And, Bree, do you want to drop that news?

Bree Buchanan:

Absolutely. And so I looking at who would be the best person. We brought along, I reached out to Chris and he was gracious enough to agree to take the baton from me. And so I've gladly passed that on. And Chris is just the right person, the right leader at this time as we really start to develop a long-term vision.

And that's something. He is a visionary and that's something that he's really great at doing. So after two years it was time to have a switch of leadership. And so Chris has stepped into that place, my podcast co-host. And I'm really excited about what the future holds.

Chris Newbold:

And again, it's an exciting time for us. Bree was really visionary in getting all of our leaders together back in August to kind of launch a strategic plan for us. And, Bree, I think it's safe to say that the pillars that we created in terms of the areas that we wanted to focus our work. And just want to take a quick minute to ensure that all of our wellbeing advocates are aware of where that's going.

We've done such a great job I think on the raising of education and awareness around wellbeing. In fact, this is a perfect time to make a plug for our upcoming Wellbeing in Law Week, which is set for May 1st through the 5th this year. Again, contact us at I-Well, if you're interested in plugging into what will be just a fantastic menu of activities going on each day during that week.

So education and awareness. I know, Bree, you've been very vocal about our need to continue to be a strong voice, particularly when we think about systemic opportunities for change in favor of wellbeing. And so we're looking at amplifying our advocacy voice. We're definitely also looking at on our strategic plan, the ability, which is the focal point of our podcast today. Which is elevating our research and the data accumulation to understand where the opportunities are, how we outline our priorities, and where we go next?

So we'll obviously spend a lot of time on this podcast talking about research. And then the last part that I think is noteworthy is I-Well's opportunity to be a facilitator of dialogue amongst stakeholders. And whether that's wellbeing directors at large law firms, whether it's solo practitioners, regulators, professional liability carriers. There's a real opportunity for I-Well to bring these stakeholder groups together to advance action oriented plans to continue to move toward our ultimate mission of the culture shift.

So again, really excited about the future of where I-Well is and where we're going today. But let's turn to the podcast today. And again, I've previewed it a little bit. That I'm really thrilled today to kind of broaden our scope a little bit and actually look beyond the US border. And we're really excited to welcome professor Nathalie Cadieux, who's an associate professor and researcher with the Sherbrooke University's Business School.

Bree, I'd love it if you could, I know that you've met Nathalie before and talk about groundbreaking research related to the Canadian legal profession. We're really excited about the conversation that's on tap for today.

Bree Buchanan:

Absolutely. And so yeah, I had the pleasure of meeting Nathalie at a conference in Canada a few years ago. And it really, what it seems, it's a Federation of Law Society's Conference, which is the bar there is organized a little bit differently than the United States. But we all came together, this was a focus on regulators. And out of that conference there were so many ideas around wellbeing for lawyers and it truly became an incubator for great ideas.

And so it is so exciting to be able to report and bring Nathalie in to talk about what all has transpired and has come out of that one conference. And then just the beauty of being able to bring together passionate advocates and the law and see what can come from that.

So just a little bit more about Nathalie. She is been leading a national research project and is the principal investigator on mental. Then this project is around the mental health of Canadian lawyers. And the project, the research was conducted on 7300 lawyers, which is a really great population group to get data from.

And it's a two phase project and have completed the first phase and published that report and recommendations. And we're going to hear some more about that from Nathalie. So we are thrilled to bring Nathalie Cadieux to you, to our listeners.

And Nathalie, one of the things that we always start off with is just to learn a little bit about the background of our speakers, our guests, to find out what has drawn you to this area. So how did you become interested in researching the legal community? Because you're not a lawyer but an academic and a researcher. And what makes you so passionate about this work?

Nathalie Cadieux:

In fact, Bree, it was at the intersection of several events that led me to become involved in the topic of mental health among lawyers and later among other legal professionals. Not many people notice, but I will tell you a confidence, Bree, I was in law school myself when I started my university and I left after only a few days.

And I have to admit that it was really difficult. And I have to admit that the culture particularly and the pressure to perform and the competitiveness between the student, for example, killed my career intention at the end. And nevertheless, it was just a coincidence that I became interested in the mental health of legal professionals, because after leaving law school I began studying in industrial relations, particularly related to my interest in the labor law.

And then I did a master's degree in professional ethics and I realized that professionals in a regulated profession, are subject to particular stressors on a daily basis. Such as decision making in complex situations, professional accountability, ethics, and ethical pressure. So I therefore did the PhD thesis to better understand these stressors.

And my thesis demonstrated that the models, the stressors that we included to understand occupational stress or wellness in the knowledge-based economy, do not capture the complexity of the professional realities of regulated professionals specifically. So once my PhD was completed, I was determined to go back to the real world and to better understand.

And as I began my career as an academic researcher in 2013, I observed a very significant increase in request to the Quebec Bar Member Assistance Program. And I therefore concluded a partnership with the Bar of Quebec to understand why, and later with the Federation of Law Societies of Canada and the Canadian Bar Association.

So in short, to answer your question, these last 10 years I've been invested in the Legal community and there are so many challenges. So I could never think of being interested in another profession. So it's a coincidence that I went through a law school, but you can understand that today with the benefit of this perspective, it helps-

Bree Buchanan:

Absolutely.

Nathalie Cadieux:

Me to make sense of this trajectory and to be sensitive to the challenges that professional face from the moment they enter law school.

Chris Newbold:

Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, today obviously we're talking about the first comprehensive research on mental health in the Canadian legal profession. Nathalie, tell us about how we got there. Who commissioned the wellness study? What led to it being a priority? We're just always kind of interested in the kind of how did you get to the point of idea to publication?

Nathalie Cadieux:

The following first study conducted between 2014 and 2019 in Quebec, in the province in Canada, in which more than 2700 Quebec lawyers participated. We were able to establish that a significant proportion of lawyers experience psychological distress and many are also exposed to professional burnout. And we developed a data collection tool that included the several stressors specific to the practice of law, such as pressure related to billable hours for example.

And I was then invited, as Bree explained before, by the Federation of Law Societies of Canada in October 2019, to present these results to Hall Canadian Law Societies. And it was the first study of its kind in Canada. And this presentation was used after to initiate further discussions with the Federation of Law Societies of Canada, but also with the Canadian Bar Association, to conduct a Canada-wide study involving all societies for this project in two phases. The first phase was founded by these partners. And the phase two of which has just begun is founded by the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada.

Bree Buchanan:

Great. Digging into a little of the details about the survey. Who did you include in that? Which I think is interesting for Americans. How many joined in? And why did you feel it was so important to include these different groups beyond just a lawyer?

Nathalie Cadieux:

Yes, as you explained before, more than 7300 legal professionals, mostly lawyers, participated in the first phase, which was published in November 2022. But our sample also included young professionals in articling, paralegals, it's paralegals in Ontario and notaries in Quebec. And even though there are fewer of them compared to the lawyers, we choose to include these different groups for two reason.

The first because daily life in many legal environments is difficult and not only for lawyers. And we want to reflect this reality and be as inclusive as possible. And second, because we also want to understand the dynamics sometimes common, but sometimes slightly different, that may exist within each of these groups.

And finally, articling students are our future lawyers and we felt it was very important to include them in order to evaluate different mental health indicators in this population. But also to understand the determinant of mental health. And these young people are the future of the provision and is therefore essential to pay attention to them now in order to prioritize action.

Bree Buchanan:

Absolutely. And, Nathalie, just for our listeners, could you tell us Americans, what is an articling student?

Nathalie Cadieux:

It's the last moment before the entry in the profession. You have, it's the last part of the training, the academic training at the end of your university. When you entry in the law society, you have a period when during this period, you are supervised by another lawyer. Like mentoring, but it's not a mentoring, it's a condition to entry in the profession.

Bree Buchanan:

Great, thanks for that.

Chris Newbold:

Nathalie, you measured rates of psychological distress, depression, anxiety, burnout, and suicidal ideation. What was most concerning about your findings?

Nathalie Cadieux:

You know all health indicator are very high, but we anticipated this before to start. Prior to the pandemic, Chris, indicators related to mental health among legal professionals were of concern. In the 2019 study that we made in the province of Quebec, the indicators related to mental health were already higher than in the general population. Around 40% of psychological distress, for example, compared to 25% in the working populations.

So not surprisingly, the indicators that we measured in the last study are not only high, but they are even higher than in the general population. So a majority now of legal professionals are experiencing psychological distress with a proportion of 59.4%. So it's more than 10 to 20% of the estimates made in the Canadian workforce during the same period. And I think across the different indicators that we measured over, I think that we have many concern about the percentage of legal professionals who experienced suicidal thoughts since the beginning of their professional practice.

It's just over 24% and it's a high proportion compared with the general population. Because when we compare with physician, for example, for the same question for Canadian physicians, it's around 19%. So it's very high. And beyond the health indicators, and while health issues are very important enough concern for sure, I believe it's also important to highlight other consequences that sometimes arise from these wellness issues, namely commitment to the profession and the intention to leave it.

The work of professionals is a fulfilling environments and wellness issues can challenge future career paths. For example, more than half of respondent consider that they could stop practicing law and take another job at the same pay level at the moment of the data collection. And less than a half of participants said that they look forward to starting a day's work.

More than one out of four of legal professionals frequently dream of working in another profession. And one out of three with less than 10 years of experience, regret having chosen their profession.

Bree Buchanan:

Oh, my.

Nathalie Cadieux:

I think it's very important to highlight this kind of collateral damage following wellness issues.

Bree Buchanan:

Absolutely. And I just want to tell our listeners, we will provide you, or are providing you a link to the study. It's a beautiful document with lots of graphics and so an easy and helpful read, so that you'll have a link to all of that.

I wanted to just dig a little bit deeper on another topic, Nathalie, which is around help. What we talk about in the United States is help seeking. The willingness of somebody who's experiencing one of these problems to actually reach out and get some professional help for it. And in really the foundational research for the wellbeing movement in the United States, it was very clear from the answers that both lawyers and law students were extremely reluctant, unwilling to seek help for psychological issues that they were experiencing. A lot of it around the role of stigma.

But what are you seeing or what did you see with Canadian lawyers and students here? Or the entire population that you researched?

Nathalie Cadieux:

It's a very good question, Bree, and a relevant questions because it's one thing to live some or some experienced psychological distress, but if the professional don't seek help, it can can lead to worst problematic. Like depressive sometimes anxiety problem and the use of the lead to coping, negative coping strategies for example.

And while a large proportion of legal professionals in Canada have sought health help in the past, many other have been not able to do so. When we ask, "Have you ever felt the need to seek professional help for psychological health problems but now don't?" So almost half of professionals who provided an answer on this question stated they did not seek help despite needing.

This is especially important because of this percentage, two out of three of professionals experience suicidal ideation during their practice. And why? Many we ask different question related to the confidence in the assistance program linked to their law society. Confidence related to the assistance program of their organization.

But we ask people why? Despite this confidence or beyond the confidence that you have in your assistance program, why? And many responded, said it will pass. Other did not have the energy to engage in such a process. Lacked the time, the financial resources. Some professionals were unsure, yes, whether professional help was appropriate.

And we can excluded that seeking or not seeking help may also be the result of a sense of stigma associated with mental health issues and sometimes limits professionals from seeking help. And in this study specifically on this subject, we measured personal stigma and we develop a scale about the personal stigma and the perceived stigma. So we asked many questions to the professional, related to their perception about professionals in their profession with mental health issues. And we asked after the same question, what do you think that people in your profession think about that?

The same question. And what do you think the gap is, Bree? The gap is just over 40%. That's a huge gap. This gap is related to the fact that few professionals have a negative perception of professionals or colleague who experienced mental health issues during their practice. But many perceive that people in their profession have a negative perception of mental health issues.

And there is a significant gap, not support by real and measurable facts, but it does create a significant barriers to seeking help. And I think that we have to discuss about wellness, we have to discuss about wellbeing in the profession. And I think we have again, a lack of communication about health. And I think this stigma, yes, is feed by professional culture. But also on individual beliefs fueled by a lack of collective communication related to wellness. So I think we have to talk about it in whole settings and raise a awareness to break down taboos.

Chris Newbold:

Yeah, it's fascinating. I think one of the things that, I don't think it's a surprise to me, but it's interesting how much to the research that you've done with respect to the Canadian legal profession, really in fact mirrors the US legal profession, right? And when you hear the things about, again, the stress, the depression, the regret of going into the legal profession in the first place.

You just hear some of the same themes, which again kind of moves us to the question of why is that? And what was expected? What the realities are? What's driving the realities? And I think it's just very interesting that two countries, two different legal systems, so to speak, same profession, same realities when it comes to the challenges of wellbeing.

Let's do this, let's take a quick break, hear from one of our sponsors. And want to delve in even further to some of the other I think key findings from your really impressive research of legal professionals in Canada. We'll be right back.

Chris Newbold:

Welcome back and we are really honored today to be talking to Professor Nathalie Cadieux, who was at really at the forefront of the first comprehensive national study of its kind in Canada when it comes to wellbeing.

Again, Nathalie, thank you so much for joining us. You researched the factors also in your study that impacted wellbeing, both work and non work-related. And I'm just curious of kind of what you found in terms of the things that are additive to wellbeing and also corrosive and detracting from a legal professional's wellbeing. What were some of your findings when you looked at the research kind of underneath the surface?

Nathalie Cadieux:

It's a very important questions and we measured in this study more than 100 risk and productive factors. Including different individuals, social, and organizational, and professionals factors. And regarding risk and protective factors for wellbeing in the organizational sphere, it is important when phases, that the results indicate that risk factors have a prep on their own weight on health.

And this means that actions aim at adding resources, will often have a limited or insignificant effects on health. Conversely, any action aimed at acting on risk factors will have a very important effect. Among the risk factor, emotional demands are the most important risk factor for sure. And a majority of lawyers are confronted with these demands and they are not like any other's demands. They have a short term effects but also longer term effects.

Among the effects, we include a part in the report about the competition fatigue and vicarious trauma for experience many professionals. We also identify consultative overload, work and security, and hour work that are the main stressors in the working condition.

The result also indicate that professionals who have billable hour targets to meet, that are more likely to experience mental health issues. And this is related to the pressure felt by many professionals to meet billing targets. But also to the fact that billable hours represent an average of actual hour work in the sample, and the percentage is around 62%. So it's just 62% of your overall hour work in a week.

And if the risk factor are not surprised, we founded many interaction between some of these risk factors which contribute to generate explosive cocktails for practitioners. For example, related specifically to billable hours, professionals who have a billable hour targets within the first two years of practice are particularly at risk. And professionals who are exposed to high emotional demands and have a billable hours target to meet, are also particularly at risk.

So it's the risk that we identify. And among the protective factors, because I think despite the impact is the impact of protective factor is less than when we compare with the risk factor. I think it's important to talk about these protective factors in combination to the diminish the reduction of risk factor.

We founded that case skills like assertiveness for example. It's the ability to set limit and say no. And psychological detachment are particularly relevant to protect wellness in law. And we also found that autonomy, consistency of values, career opportunities, tele-work or the adaptation to tele-work, and the support from colleagues, are among the main important factors to protect the wellbeing of lawyers.

Bree Buchanan:

And I was just interested in hearing how much that, as sort of rhymes with what's going on in the United States in regards particularly to younger lawyers and what the research found here too. About them being so disproportionately impacted in the early years of the practice. And making that a focal point really for all of us in providing resources and solutions in this.

Another thing on I-Well, the institute had made a point of highlighting how lawyers and legal professionals of varying race, ethnicity, gender, and identification as LBGTQ, may be impacted more dramatically than the historical figures that we've had in the legal profession and leadership of that. How did that play out in Canada? What did you find in regards to those different groups?

Nathalie Cadieux:

Beyond the health indicators which are higher for these professional, we also found that these professionals are particularly impacted by discrimination in the practice of law. And on this point, we included in the study, many questions related to the live. It's the experience stigma, but it's the concept of discrimination in the practice of law.

So it include 10 or 11 questions like I have been discriminated against at work. We ask the question at work because I identify as LGBTQIA2S+, or because I'm indigenous, or because I live with a disability. And after we ask 11 question, I have been discriminated against, I have been ignored or taken less seriously. I have been given fewer career opportunities, for example. So we include this kind of questions.

And you will be surprised. And I asked many question in my team about it and we found the answer why LGBTQIA2S+ community felt less discriminate. I was really surprised of this result. And I found why it's because close than a half of professionals who identify as LGBTQIA2S+, as a member of LGBTQIA2S+ community, don't discuss about it in their workplace. So this is the reason why. People don't know in their organization so they don't feel discriminated related to this.

But I think it raised the importance of this because when you come back of your weekend for example, and you discuss about your weekend with your colleague. And you are not able to discuss that, "I was with my husband to go skiing," for example, because you don't share any information about your personal life in your workplace. I think it's an issue because we pass more time with our colleagues in the week compared to our family.

So I think it's very important. And not surprising, the main group, the higher proportions of discrimination are observed among women, again today in 2023. And among professionals with a disability. It was an area of concern too.

Chris Newbold:

Now your research group, one of the things I love about when folks engage in research is not just the identification of the data but also the endeavor to identify solutions. What were some of the most impactful recommendations that you believe were made as a result of the research and in the report?

Nathalie Cadieux:

We made 10 main recommendations at the end of this report. These recommendations are in core in the data that we obtain in this project. And the first one is to improve preparation of future professionals and provide them support to deal with psychological health issues. And it means insure for example, a balance between theory and practice in university or in college curriculum.

But also to include critical transverse skills in the education of legal professionals. That will benefit them throughout their professional life. Like time management for example, or emotion management. And promote also a healthy lifestyles to increase awareness about mental health issues.

But beyond the preparation of future professionals, we also suggest to improve supports and guidance available at the entry in the profession. And I think it will means for law society to evaluate the possibility to create a professional integration plan in the first or two first years of practice. Promote also mentoring for those entering in the profession.

And for organization, it will mean remove billable hour targets for professionals in their first two years of practice. Just to give the chance for the young practitioners to develop the case skills they need to be well in their profession after. We also develop a recommendation around the importance to improve the continuing professional development offered to legal professionals. Because we've seen that we don't have at this point, an evolving vision of professional development needs throughout one's career.

And I think it's very important to develop this kind of evolving vision, but also to better structure mandatory trainings' hour for professional and develop a training aligned with risk factors. Because in many profession, stress decrease and psychological distress decrease when you have a higher, better experience, and when you progress in your career. But it's not always the case for legal practitioners and for lawyers.

And why? It's because it's the overlap of stressors and the stability of some stressors throughout the career too. So I think that we have to work on this to improve the professional developments. We also suggest we are relevant to evaluate the implementation of alternative work organization models. Because when I give conference everywhere, I exchange with professional.

And I like this kind of moment to when I'm able to exchange informally. And I said, "Why some engineer, for example, engineer work with billable hours? But they are not stressed related to billable hours." When you exchange with engineer, you don't talk about their billable hours. It's not an area of concern.

But why? Why when I discuss with the lawyers, it's always a subject of discussions and we discuss about the stress about it. The reason is the stricter of work organizations. Because engineer work by project. And lawyers will have the responsibility of a case and he will work alone on their case. So he will be alone to manage the emotional demand related to their case. And he will also alone to manage the risk associate to the time that he will be involved in their case. And the billable hours and the expectation related to billable hours.

But if we share the responsibility in a team and work in team in a case, I'm sure that we will limit the impact of billable hours. So I suggest to revise the organization of work. And I think it will be a very important recommendation in the future to implement in some organization. And we'll have for sure to work on the distinct messaging, mental health issues in the legal provisions, and implement some action related to this.

Improve the access to health and wellness support resources and breakdown barriers that limit access to these resource. For example, by promote the use of available resources and increase the willingness of professionals to seek help. But also too, we will have to work on the perception of confidentiality, to increase trust in the Law Societies' Lawyer Member Assistance Program.

For example, I suggest to remove any question related to wellness in the form when you make your application to the Law Society. To remove the fees on your professional fees when you, for your license, remove all fees on your bills related to the Law Society Assistance Program. Because I think that if I see this on my bills for sure, it suggests a proximity between the assistance program and the Law Society.

And for sure, work on the promotion of diversity. Considered the health of legal professionals as an integral part of the justice systems. I don't know if you have the same issues in United States, but in Canada, the access of justice is a very important subject. And the pressure on the system justice have an impact of wellness issues in the profession.

Bree Buchanan:

And it's interesting to see that in the United States there's studies done about lawyers and showing that we are the loneliest profession of all the professions out there. And having worked for years with the Lawyer's Assistance Program, I was really able to see the detrimental effect that isolation has.

Isolation, working on your own for a long period of time is really a breeding ground for depression and substance abuse, et cetera. So that really resonated with me. What lessons should the American legal community learn from your research? And are there ways you'd like to see us work together?

Nathalie Cadieux:

For the first part of your question, Bree, I think we have three things are important. The first thing that should be learned from this research is the demonstration of the complexity of mental health in the legal practice. The direct consequence of this complexity is the multidimensional nature of risk and productive factors.

The second thing of this research demonstrated is the dominance of risk factors compared to protective factors. The first reaction when we are managers, or as professional association, is to invest in resources. For example in the assistance program, access to psychologists in organization. A better pay, more flexible hours. And this is normal because it's much easier to do.

However, the very marginal weight of these resources compared to the risk factor, highlights that the only way to achieve a sustainable and healthier practice of law is to act on the risk factor. Work overload, number of hour worked, technical stress, the feeling and invasion of technology, work organization, emotional demands.

I recently explained this to the Law Societies in Canada and I using the metaphor of a float. Imagine you are in your basement and your basement is full of water and a huge wave is coming near your house. If I give you a cup, it will certainly help you, but it won't stop the water from rising.

The cup here is the assistance program and the wave is the major stressors that influence the lawyer's daily life. The water in the basement is the cumulative stress from years of practice. So I think we need to keep this metaphor in mind when we take action to avoid acting on the symptoms rather than the causes.

And finally, the third thing that this research has highlighted are explosive cocktails for the practice of law when we observed an overlap of some stressors. Intense emotional demands and high expectations in term of billable hours. High emotional demands and high workload. These cocktails must be considered from an intervention perspective in order to limit as much as possible the combination of stressors that have a significant weight in the balance of wellbeing.

And regarding the second part of your question, I certainly dreamed that the significant progress made in this study could allow us to work together. Who knows, maybe by conducting this kind of survey in the US but to compare us. But also maybe working together to develop, for example, a wellness index in the practice of law. An index for which the evolution could be evaluated through a longitudinal survey every three or five years.

I think it's important to measure us and to follow the evolution of wellness. To be proud of the action that we made and we move forward. And to evaluate this progression and the better wellness in the proposition, for sure.

Chris Newbold:

Nathalie, as we conclude, let's spend a quick minute just looking forward. If we were to have you on the podcast 10 years from now, how would you hope the legal profession in Canada is different? And what needs to happen to get us there?

Nathalie Cadieux:

It's a good question. In 10 years, first I hope it will be easier for professionals to talk about mental health and also more automatic to seek help. I hope that talking about mental health over the years will have significantly reduced the sense of stigma for those experiencing mental health issues. I hope a more inclusive and diverse practice of law.

And finally, I hope that we will better protect the younger lawyers. First by better preparing them for what is coming down, but also by taking care of them when they come into the profession, by reminding us that they are the future of this profession. And at the end, none of this result are the result of a single action or a single stakeholder. It's the result of a dynamic within the legal profession in Canada, but also elsewhere in the world. And we have, if everybody taking action and small action, I'm sure that it will be better.

Bree Buchanan:

Well, Nathalie, thank you so much for being here and joining us today. It was such a pleasure to meet you in Canada. And I am thrilled to see the amazing work that has come in Canada since that time. And I'll just say I hope we can find ways to work together because clearly there are so many similarities between our two countries and the profession.

And so I want to thank you very much. And to our listeners, thanks for joining us today. Thanks to Chris for my co-host. And we will be back to you very soon with additional podcasts to help you and us find a better way towards wellbeing in the law. Thanks to everyone.

Chris Newbold:

Thanks, Nathalie.

Nathalie Cadieux:

Thank you so much. Take care of you, Chris and Bree.

Chris Newbold:

Thank you.